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Thursday, September 15. 2011From Whence We Came
I don't mean for this to be a 'conversation starter', and I probably won't be very interested in debating the subject in the comments. Arguing over things that can't be proven is, admittedly, something of a waste of time. I just thought it would be fun to throw another idea into the ring. It was written about five years ago when suddenly Evolution vs Intelligent Design was in the news because some Kansan school board was considering putting pictures of Jesus riding around on dinosaurs in their Science books or something. But the first sentence is certainly relevant after yesterday.
There are three main groups battling for the How We Got Here title; the Creationists, the Evolutionists, and the Intelligent Design people. As it stands now, they're miles apart on this black & white issue. Only one of the three groups can be right. There can be no compromise. Or, can there? Try this on for size: Many moons ago, when the earth was a cauldron of heat and water and storms and volcanic upheaval — a froth just waiting for new life to appear — an intelligent entity stopped by and planted one tiny microbe in the ocean. Having a couple billion other worlds to attend to, the entity then went on about its business and left the earthly cauldron to simmer and stew for a couple of aeons. The microbe split in two, then split again. Bigger microbes ate the smaller microbes, and the rest is history. And? The Creationists are mostly right. God exists and created Man, albeit starting with a microbe rather than Adam. The Bible is a book of morals, not a history book. The Evolutionists are mostly right. Man evolved from a single microbe. Why should they care how it got here? Is it 'okay' if we started off as some spore hitching a ride on an asteroid, but somehow 'wrong' or 'bad' if the spore arrived via some power we don't understand? Please explain how. The Intelligent Design people are mostly right. Man evolved from a single microbe, but needed a little outside help to get going. To keep the Evolutionists happy, we're going to have to stipulate that evolution didn't need any external help after its initial start. The I.D. people aren't going to like that, because they're big on things like "evolution wasn't smart enough to create the eye," but, my feeling is, if evolution can create the platypus, it can create pretty much anything. To keep the Creationists happy, and because it wouldn't interfere with the Evolutionists and IDers, it could even be said that the entity re-visited the earth at a later date, saw that religion needed a small boost and caused the holy birth of Christ. It might even have been part of the original plan; to come back to a planet at that particular point in its societal evolution and create a 'miracle' so it could evolve to the next step. The intelligence then went on to the other billions of worlds in the universe to see how they were doing. It might drop back by at any moment, just to see how things are coming along. Of course, it's no surprise that no one has ever proposed this answer. It's really not in man's nature to compromise, and certainly not on such a fundamental issue as this. The Creationists would be screaming about losing all those cool Genesis stories, the Evolutionists would be screaming about the idea of a god in the first place, and the IDers probably wouldn't know what to think because, while delighted with their victory, they'd still be pissed about losing that "eye" thing. But, indeed, it certainly could be the answer. And why not? It certainly satisfies more parameters than the other theories do. I can almost convince all three groups that I'm right. Can you say that about yours? Trackbacks
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http://www.venganza.org/
That should answer any and all questions. Thank you and good night. Tom - Thank you for your eye-opening post. I am now a True Believer. Long may his tentacle wave.
Some moron thinks he can get out of the school's dress so he claims (cough!) religion as his excuse, thereby making a mockery of not only those who truly have issues, but the Constitution and the Founding Fathers who cared about religious persecution in the first place. And this kid mocks it. And the adulators laud him for it. The crowd worships the anti-Christ, the demigod, the pagan. Thanks for staying on-topic, Tom. :) I live to serve. Its what I do - no need to...well you know.
By the way, it is not against Pastafarianism to eat pasta - just thought you'd like to know. And yes, I am an Ordained Minister of The Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. :>) "The Bible is a book of morals, not a history book."
The creation story at the beginning of Genesis is an allegory. The Bible itself, however, is the most valuable single historical resource ever created. Many a 19th and 20th Century archeologist made his career by simply tracking down Biblical references to battles and cities – and digging. Funny you should mention that. I was flipping around the channels last night looking for something to watch when I stumbled across a History Channel show on Biblical Battles. It was extremely interesting - went through all the battles described in the bible, drew out the strategy, explained the order of battle - it was very cool. I gather for military historians, the Bible is a very good overall look at warfare in the BCE era.
Quite interesting. The FSM is very funny. I really like it, though it is designed to take potshots at people of faith.
I have a friend who is an atheist. One day he said to me, "you know, if what you need is an invisible omnipotent imaginary friend to make you feel better, then go for it!" I looked at him and said "If I took my beliefs seriously, I'd be truly offended at your statement. But think about the opposing view - if you are happy with the emptiness that comes with realizing there is nothing more, then go for it!" He WAS offended. I simply looked at him and said "why belittle people for what they believe in? You may think you have a special knowledge, and that's great for you. But since there is no special knowledge that works for everyone, can't you just respect that someone else doesn't share your special knowledge?" My extended family runs the gamut from Charismatics to atheists. They all enjoy a good party and spending time together, and the fact that there is a wide range of disagreements on how we all came to be together at that point in time is meaningless. One of my wife's close friends is an evangelical Christian and took high offense at my Pastafarianism and Ordained Ministry in the CoTFSM and got all up in my grill (not literally, figuratively) about being saved and Jesus Christ. I stopped her at one point and said that I found it hard to believe that Jesus Christ didn't laugh, sing or dance, maybe get a little tipsy on a carafe of the old vino and tell an off color joke or two. She still doesn't speak to me - apparently I'm full of Satan or something.
And it is satire - but as in most types of humor, there is under lying truth which makes it effective. I believe in God, but I don't necessarily believe religious dogma of any sort including Pastafarianism - that is the beauty of the CoTFSM - you don't have to believe it to enjoy it for what it is. :>) That's exactly why I laugh at the FSM. I remember first reading about it ages ago and cracking up.
But it does belittle the concept of God, and if you truly believe, it can be hurtful. So I'm usually careful in my use of FSM because I choose not to offend. But Satan? Really? This is where belief steps over the line from engaging Reason to being unreasonable. One area where I suppose I do 'offend' is the humor I find in those 'Darwin' fish with feet on cars. I had seen the religious fish for years, and when I saw the Darwin one, I cracked up. I laughed even more when I saw the follow up - a Christian fish swallowing a Darwin. Everyone should be open to having some fun poked at their beliefs and backgrounds because humor keeps us grounded. As a proud Irishman, however, I'm offended by that nasty school in the Midwest that portrays us as little men in green suits. Totally beyond the pale and unfair to a proud and sometimes sober heritage. ill pass on this discussion but don't forget love & forgiveness -- they don't make much sense, but they is big, big. wherever they came from, happenstance, pattern sequence eventuality, etc., et cetera
Or, to go even further back, an intelligent entity designed a bunch of physical rules and behaviors. For example, light shall go this fast and no faster. Tiny tiny things combine to make slightly less tiny things according to certain rules of order. For example some tiny things combine to make a hydrogen atom, other tiny things make an oxygen atom and when these get together in the correct proportion they make the slightly less tiny water molecule. And it goes all the way up to galaxies and even the entire universe as we know it. The entity then gave it all a tiny nudge to kick it off with a big bang. The intelligent entity went back to whatever it was doing beforehand.
Some say this entity made a special visit here sometime later and got his ass kicked by champion ass kickers for it. But it loves us anyway. Or so it is said. He ran into Chuck Norris??
Damn! That's some bad luck. I hope He It doesn't hold us personally responsible. The man's an absolute menace! #5 David Avera - Yes, that is a bit better for me.
As I said in the earlier thread, why do people believe God is too un-Intelligent to Design such systems? - - - - - - - - - - - - -going astray now - I was brought up in a Christian denomination, and try to live by much of what I was taught - but no, I do not consider myself Christian. And I think I am in good company - neither was Jesus: he was Jewish. The Christian thing really got going when the mission[s] to Greece started getting unterest there, except for the bit about having to convert to Judaism first ("You want me to cut off WHAT?"). And those things I was taught that I mention? Yanno, a lot of it is in Buddhism and Confucianism, which do not consider themselves religions. Quite a bit was in Mithraism, the old Greco-Roman pantheons, and just about every other major religion - with, yes, what st least seem to be aberrations such as the Aztec system. Dave, John - Continuing with the theology theme, I'm going to make a post tomorrow discussing the advent of religion. Dave, like the point you were making, we might not be seeing the bigger picture.
A minor point, perhaps, but "whence" means "from where," so "from whence" is redundant.
PR - Only literally. From dictionary.com:
QUOTE: Although sometimes criticized as redundant on the grounds that “from” is implied by the word whence, the idiom from whence is old in the language, well established, and standard. Among its users are the King James Bible, Shakespeare, Dryden, and Dickens: "Hilary finally settled in Paris, from whence she bombarded us with letters, postcards, and sketches." I picked it up from Shakespeare. Christian, theistic evolutionist here...but if I wasn't what I am I think young Jonathan sums up what my thinking would look like quite nicely.
OK. Just delete my previous comment. Forget I even said it. Dang.
The three general theories about how we became people are hard to reconcile.
The really hard thing to figure out is why there's a Universe at all. Once we accept that we have a Universe, why is there life in it? The evidence of biology points to evolution as the mechanism by which all life came about. There are some chemical experiments that seem to indicate self-replicating chemical structures could form under the right conditions. That could be a purely physical origin of life. But whence (or from whence) the physical matter? The Big Bang? Okay, but whence the singularity that banged? So I fetch up at the evolution-by-design school of thought, doing my best to reconcile my understanding of science with my ignorance of science and with my faith. I also figure I don't know much of the answer. The Bible is a book of philosphy, morality and history. Its science is weak. Some of its theology strikes me as -- well, frankly, as unacceptable. Some will call me arrogant for saying that, and I have been arrogant, but I think I am no longer arrogant in saying that. I can't make myself believe some of what the Bible says I'm supposed to believe, after careful meditation and prayer. Recent work on DNA, genomes and cell structures at the molecular level, involving sickle cells, malaria and HIV research, have to all intents and purposes, demonstrated that random mutation and natural selection CANNOT account for species changes over time, even billions of years. Genetic accidents can cause a degree of evolutionary change, but only a small one. Random selection CANNOT account for the enormously long and complex pathways to arrive at the immensely complicated features of life on earth.
Does this then mean that creationism, or even Intelligent Design, are the only other viable hypotheses? Of course not. It just means that further conjecture and research must be performed before the explanations for the apparent changes in life on earth over time are uncovered. Does anybody seriously believe that Darwin's original theories are the final answer to the evolution of life on earth? Be serious. Unfortunately, Darwin and evolution have been captured by political ideologies with a very definite social agenda. The politicization of Darwin began very early, by pushing the concepts of survival of the fittest onto races/ethnicities (WWI) and the "elitist" management of reproduction to improve the human stock (the Sanger wing of Progressivism). If the driver of evolution is not random mutation and natural selection, then further open and unbiased research is necessary to point the way. You miss the entire point of Selection as the crux of Evolution.
It isn't "random". Evolution is the most tested, most provable scientific fact we have. As I understood Origin of Species, Darwin did not think of mutation as the primary means of natural selection and evolution. He considered the normal and occasionally abnormal range of variability of each species to be the key to evolution. E.g., one species of finch originally inhabits all the islands in the Galapagos. The original population has the potential in its genes to develop a range of beaks. On each island, certain beak tendencies are more favorable. Slowly, over many generations, the less-adapted birds get out-competed. They don't necessarily starve, and they almost certainly don't disappear in one generation, but ever so gradually they produce fewer offspring with their beak genes. As the beak genes are selected, other genes are likely to be selected with them. Perhaps even chromosome counts begin to change. Over time, the changes are so great that the two groups can no longer produce offspring.
None of this requires mutation and this sure doesn't explain everything we think we know about evolution. Darwin knew of the gaps in his own thinking and his own knowledge. I am among those who look at how life took shape and find it hard to believe it was all the toss of dice. I acknowledge the possibility. In default of proof that it's all the toss of dice, I believe in the Prime Cause, the Great Instigator, who does seem to have had some kind of plan. That plan produced the finches, the dolphins, escherichia coli and me. A redwood is as marvelous a form of life as I am. (No, I'm not saying a fish is a dog is a boy.) Doc,
Of course, it's no surprise that no one has ever proposed this answer. On the contrary, a number of people have offered such an idea. It forms the basis of the position known as "theistic evolution," although the theistic-evolutionists postulate a somewhat more active God than you do. Unfortunately, the theistic-evolutionists tend to keep quiet, because both extremes hate their guts. Rigid Creationists and Intelligent Design advocates (not that there's much difference) say "no evolution above the species level, ever." Rigid antitheists say "no supernatural entities, ever." Any hint of compromise is anathema. It's really quite striking how much the antitheists resemble the anti-evolutionists in their attitudes and rhetoric. |

